Category: Geeks r Us
What's the difference between HTML and SGML? Is one harder to write in and how would the same page look in one versus the other? Is one more accessible than the other?
Since the topic of html versus xhtml was brought up I figured I'd reask this one about sgml. How would a page written in sgml differ from one written in html to the average user? Is it simpler and less cluttered? What about if someone were to view the source of the page? Could they immediately tell in which language it was written if they were a programmer? Also, where do I find the SGML Primer?
Well, I found the primer.
http://xml.coverpages.org/sqprimerBody.html
And it confuses the hell out of me. lol I think I'll start with QuickBasic 4.5 and then go back to this once I feel comfortable with programming in general. But good to know it's available and accessible.
Just started reading this.
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/WhatIsSGML.html
and sort of understand SGML a little more. But still trying to figure how all this relates to writing a webpage. Ah well. Now I want that book "SGML on the WEB: Small steps beyond HTML" and, more importantly, the cd containing Panorama Pro 2.0 that comes with it. It's supposed to help you write your own pages. I just hope it's accessible. I'm not even sure what os I need to use it. lol
Woe! You need a totally different browser to read SGML webpages? Huh?
http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/chorus/mixed/reviews/panorama2/index.html
Okay, so why can Nettamer, Lynx etc. read regular modern pages? I mean, html wasn't around then right? What was used to write the web? What would happen if I cound a page that wasn't written in html and tried reading it with Safari on the mac or Internet Explorer on the XP machine? I think Panorama is out in any case, even if I could find such webpages, cause it doesn't work with Internet Explorer.
Well, if this isn't a one person post all topic then let me say this!
This sight I found is grate with teaching yourself how to make and use all kinds of codes. I can't remember who told me about it but it is called
w3schools
It might help. And I was given
This sight
as well. I am not shure what all is on it yet because I just recieved it a few days ago. But they might help. They tell you how to wright the codes. I like the first one better because it gives you a place to test it out without messing anything up. And you are given quizzes on it if you like.
hahaha No, it's not supposed to be a one-person only topic. In any case, they probably won't have what I'm seeking. I still don't know the difference between the two markup languages, but I did learn that html isn't as new as I previously thought, so it can be used to make nice clean pages as well as bulky ones. I'll have to look into it at some point. Wonder if I can just use a text editor to write in it or if I'll need some kind of template or something?
I don't know about sgml, but you can write html code using notepad.
SGML is the older markup language, from the 90's, but it didn't catch on like HTML did, however HTML builds on SGML, in that it uses simple formatting codes to tell your browser, word processor, and other things what to do. Yes, you could just use a standard text editor to code html if you're going to do all the coding by hand.
I personally prefer doing all the coding by hand cause I don't like the crap that programs that assist with html writing adds in to the documents. Although, I'd also suggest that anyone looking into coding for the Web look more toward xhtml and/or asp.net. I think those are going to supplant html; if they haven't already. :)
Asp.net, php, perl etc etc are actually server side scripting languages, so html is still what the client gets back.
None really use sgml any more it's waaaay outdated as far as I know.
Html 5 is beginning to spred, haven't looked too closely on it but it looks like it'll have built-in video support. Think they hope to remove th need for external plugins such as flash.
Xhtml is basically just a nice way of writing your tags, ending them propperly.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong or if you've got more info.
Malthe.
For me, it doesn't really matter if it's out of date, so long as it works and is compatible with today's systems. I'll go with whichever makes the most sense to me in the longrun. That's why I chose Quickbasic over Basic and Visual Basic. In this case, if html is truly better and more easy to understand, I'll go with it. Also, as I said, it's an 80's/90's thing, which I didn't know when I first started this thread, so that means it doesn't have to be all complicated.
Hmm, quickbasic isn't really compatible with today's systems either.
Sounds pretty much correct on the definitions. When I was suggesting asp.net it was because some people find it easier, (from what I've heard) if they are just getting started. It is easier from one prospective...You don't have to design elements by hand and can make your pages do more with very little code. :) Or, at least that's what MS says about asp.net. Also, from what I've seen as a programmer (if only part time) you learn the newest and your better in the long run. Xhtml for example is recommended because html is not understood by all phones that can use the web. I don't know about sgml for that...LOL, if this doesn't make any sinse, let me know, just waking up and still have a killer headache!!!
Quickbasic works in enhanced DR-DOS and that's good enough for me. I'll worry about internet integration once I get the essentials down. That is, if I even wanna do that. I wonder if the Mac's got a compiler for a version of Basic?
Html is the presentation language that web pages are written in like how they look, style, browser recognition as to how to read the page and how the browser recognizes links.
Sgml is mainly, and outdated, for the transfer and storage of information and doesn't have to do with how the page is written.
The cloest thing you're going to get to using sgml is to study xml code, but for that you need a working understanding of html, which is based on and incorrporates the original sgml language. Sgml has basically been phased out as a language of its own and is now the basis for html/xhtml/xml coding.
Yes, use ms-notepad for writing the basic code/text/links by hand as though it takes more time, is easier and you know what you have written and don't have to try to use one of those annoying web builder programs which usually aren't that accessible in the first place.
Go to the below link and take the free tutorial on learning html to get the basic understanding. Also if you have questions on it feel free to ask either myself or Cattleya from an above post. Html/xhtml is easy once you get the hand of it. It's the stupid css that's a pain to get the hang of.
W3 Schools
No languatge is 'inaccessible' , it's what you do with it.
XHtml is extensible html, meaning it hassome xml support and can be accessed by anything that reads XPath or XQuery.
ASP is a Microsoft Product for servers hosting ASP or more modern ASP .Net
Cold Fusion is written for servers hosting Cold Fusion and PHP the same for PHP.
Basically although I don't code pages in the way a typical web master does - more plugins etc. it's my opinion you use a scripting language of one form or another to programmatically add content, since you do that by structure through the HTML DOM.
And Eleni, most of us programmers on here cannot help you with older systems that were fazed out long ago. They weren't fazed out so someone can have a victim mentality about how much "better" things were, they were fazed out because the user market needs to do more and needs access to more.
Languages are *not* inaccessible; they are languages.
And programming is not markup, though with programming of course you can write markup, although in writing widgets I tend to write it by referencing elements, etc. and add / remove / join, etc.
If you really want the old days, nobody ever helped us then. You had next to nothing with which to work; and now we do. Nobody does SGML anymore and you can do anything in html.
Nettamer and Lynx both read html pages.
Javascript isn't even 'inaccessible' it's only what you do with it.
As I've said before, we don't bloodlet anymore, we don't drive out supposed spirits from epileptics, all sorts of things. And it isn't because we want to make the world more obscure or difficult.
Frankly, I was in high school and college during the time from which you want to get your equipment. It was bad; in those days I frequently used a typewriter because the school computers either crashed, the floppy drives weren't working or any number of things you take for granted as working now.
A command-line is not more accessible any more than a GUI is anymore inaccessible; a command-line is a command-line, a GUI is a GUI and that's it.
Particular environments work better than others, that's it. Modern screen readers do much much more for you than the DOS ones did.
Modern browsers forgive lots of html mistakes older browsers didn't.
Increasing standards (what were those in the 'beloved old days') allow developers to plug into one another's work aka make it 'accessible' rather than proprietary formats that were perpetually incompatible.
I was just out at my mother's who has similar thought to you blindness aside, but she's got an excuse not only in years but grow up without very much. Explaining how modern formats work, and doing what i could to bring forward document written in Word Pretty Good and Word Starving Starlet helped some, but there was no standard, and all the stuff you're looking for now is perpetually modern; it didn't exist back then.
Hey now, even with Windows, you can use Narrator to do some very basic things when the system is unstable, to at least gracefully shut it down and at most fix something.
And you now have NVDA which can be set up as a service, more than a free screen reader, it's a developer's spy glass at objects , as well.
Your beliefs about old systems are jus that beliefs, but they are not hard science of any kind. And your work on them will perpetually be frustrating. Any and every time I help a family member or friend out with a really old system, the problems get worse and worse with the age of the computer. That and modern concepts - like you wanting to write web-enabled apps - did not exist with Basic of any kind before Visual Basic 4 and were most stable in 6, but you'd have to write your own libraries.
If you're going to work with all these old systems, learn the new first because nobody can help you with the old.
in your good old days, you always had to mess with comm ports, CMOS, even just getting somebody's modem to work could be a chore.
Then you add, for folks like us, speech into the mix, you had to install extra software on a memory-disabled operating system (Dirty Operating System - first Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was an experiment and never intended to go to market but Microsoft fixed it up a bit and shipped it.
You're in the U.S. so call your Library of congress and get the many-volume book "Using MSDos 5" and most importantly read it.
I would have to thumb through it again for some of the details that get forgotten if I were dealing with a system with just DOS again.
Then again I'd probably just FDisk it, dump the primary partition and use a Linux distribution.
Rather than just assume the old was fazed out because it was old, why not at least assume that the change came from necessity? A basic study of evolution would tell you that. If anything, developers hold onto old systems for a lot longer than users; it's refered to as "retro-compatibility".
I realize it's a lot more fun thinking there's a comspiracy, or that one whole set of mechanisms is inaccessible - the one that's most prevalent - and another is accessible - that which is no longer in use (that was 'taken' from the masses?)
This stuff starts to sound like one of those Iluminati conspiracy theories from the 1990s.
But if you're bent on going with the old systems, the old systems required you to really work at it, and you didn't get support; there weren't call centers answering simple questions for people like there are now. And that's why most people didn't bother with computers then. People want it to be easy, and despite what you may wish to believe, systems are a lot easier on the user now than they ever were.
Yes there's Nettamer - I did a search and it was made in the 1990s. It was retrofitted for existing DOS users. You wouldn't get automatic playing of music on pages, streaming video or anything, because the memory *doesn't exist*! Whatever new DOS you're using, if it's really DOS, all execution happens either in lower memory (up to 640K, yet again another accident because they thought you'd never go beyond that), or up to 1024. Caching happened higher.
There was no swap file, which you've probablly complained about, but that swap file allows data that can't be held in memory to act as though it was.
If you really want to go back to the caves, you won't be able to plug in the heater, or keep the drafts out; maybe there was good reason for building houses, and it didn't have to do with elitism or taking away caves ...
I've given vent to more than I thought I would but pause to consider all your posts and the minimal amount of knowledge any of us have been able to give back. I know Wildebrew has a wealth of experience on assistive tech and there are several of us programmers on here who do this shit for a living. Yet you'll notice we often ignore the posts since we can't answer them, while other people's questions in QNs or whatever on some more modern language or operating system get answered. That's because we can.
Frankly, if you really had to use all old stuff, based on your posts, I'm firmly convinced you'd be lost. Like it or not, you are used to modern systems and your posts prove it in abundance.
My main purpose when starting this thread was to find out the differences between sgml and html and to see where they'd be applied. You made alot of good points here. Yes, I know now that programming isn't markup. I didn't know that when I started the post and thought that something like sgml or html would be considered programming. My main purpose when starting. You still had the net back then, even in the form of bbs and such, and I know that those into computing were mainly the ones who used them. I've also seen some interesting threads from that time, so I know that help in some form existed. Okay, not like now with Google, of course, but I'm sure you asked friends for help with things when you got stuck. I actually found an html editor for dos. Wonders will never cease I guess. As much as I love them for hobbies etc, for everyday work, I totally agree with you on the older machines. Right now, I'm using one with a 486 CPU and MS DOS cause I have no choice. But I'll soon be switching to two very fast machines, my laptop, a Compaq Armada 1750 (Pentium II), and my even faster desktop, a Dell GX110 (Pentium III). Both have tons of periferals and media inputs that I can go crazy with and use until my heart's content. And, as you all know, both will be running Enhanced DR-DOS, which is a very modern and very able system, made to handle today's technology. In fact, the ultimate goal of it's writers is to make it a fully fledged alternative to Windows, MAC, Linus etc, and they're doing a very good job. The thing is that this system is also 100% MS-DOS compatible, so while I fully intend on taking advantage of the newer software out there, I'm also planning on using some of the older stuff, particularly if it works well and is accessible. As a sidenote, there are fully graphical shells and add-ons for DOS today that change it beyond recognition. I doubt that any DOS screenreader could handle them without building one from the ground up, but they're certainly there. You're right on the screenreaders, and I'm hoping that I can become a part of the community of EDRD users and maybe find the three blind people I know as a fact still use DOS on a daily basis. I'm a total idiot, cause I forgot that I do know one and have her address. I should ask her this stuff! When you say the stuff I'm looking for is modern and didn't exist back then, to what stuff are you referrring? Certainly, my beliefs aren't hard science and I never claimed they were that, though I know of some DOS users who could probably prove my points very eloquently with facts. I don't know them in person or I'd bother them with all of this. lol What are web-enabled aps? Right now, I don't know the first thing about programming of any kind or markup languages or anything else. I'm starting with very simple stuff. My first program will probably be the most boring and unincredible thing in the world, but at least, I'll be able to use and try out the concepts that I've learned. Of course, I know what com ports are cause I use them all the time, but I have to look up cmos. I've heard it mentioned several times. Anyway, I'll be bypassing dialup modems for the most part and going wireless. I just need to get the right card and drivers. I've marked that book down and will definitely call them or look for it. Do you happen to remember the author? I know they had DOS for Dummies, which I absolutely adored, so might get that as well. Do you, or does anyone, know if they're throwing away the tapes or if I can still borrow them? I know that a few years ago, they had records, and actually offered to give them to me but stupid woman that I was, I didn't take them and they're probably all gone now. Hope I can get the chance with some tapes, particularly that one. But back to the topic. When I said that people get rid of things just because they're old, I wasn't referring to computers. I was talking about much more typical things like toasters, microwaves, washing machines, phones etc. But yes, it happens with computers too. Someone will get a new computer every six months, every year or every two years. I see no reason why, unless you're a programmer or in tech support or something similar, or unless the os changes so drastically that an older system can't handle it (Snow Leopard for example), the average user needs to do that. I'll be very honest. I think I'm just a bit nervous cause I'm getting back into the game after so long and I'm anxious cause I want all my new/old toys. There was a short time in my life, no earlier than 1998, that everything was all set. I had, along with my mandatory Windows machine, a big bulky 386 that I'd practise on all the time. I'd have my recorder with amy DOS For Dummies book and I'd sit there having fun with the prompt and writing all my stuff in Wordperfect. Then, being an extremely old machine, it crashed. Even though I eventually got my Keynote Golds, life took me away from the pursuit of my favourite os. But I vowed that one day, I'd come back. Now that I've been out of college for three years, I have time and ability and the machines are coming to me. So I think I just wanted to make sure I was truly ready for them and overdid it.
Web-enabled apps are applications that are designed to interact with the internet. Listen, I'm not downing you for wanting to learn what works on Dos, that's your choice, but when you get your new comps I'd personally suggest giving windows a wirl. When I was in highschool...Ok, I'm going to be giving away my age now...and I was getting ready for college I was able to obtain a new machine for college work. However, there was a catch, I'd get it, and it would have Windows on it...Windows 95...I didn't want it; the Windows that is, I was comfortable with Dos and didn't want anything new, difficult, frustrating, complicated to have to deal with on top of all the changes I was facing...Leaving home, being on my own, ETC...But, the choice was simple, new computer and Windows, or, no computer. I chose the computer, I learned Windows; pretty much on my own...And I don't regret it. Oh, no doubt, I still return to Dos for things like diskpart and other tools that will only run in command line, but I love Windows. And, he is right, changes to programming languages occurred because they were necessary to accomidate the changes in machinery and people. Also, Windows can open, in my opinion, a totally new range of options for programming: games, ETC. :) Just a suggestion, but if your serious about programming for any other but yourself, I think you'll find it almost a necessity. :) Best of luck.
Thanks for the suggestions. I actually have several varieties of Windows, 3.1, 95, 98 and XP. The latter is already installed on the desktop downstairs and is being reinstalled on my netbook. I'm also putting it on one of the drives on the Dell. So it's not as if I haven't used Windows. The only variety that I've never tried out is 3.1, which I intend on doing one day just for fun. As far as programming, it's really for myself and the EDRD community. If, for some reason, I do need to go more advanced than Quickbasic in the future, I'll have to consider what I want to learn. I want to stay away from object-oriented stuff and codependency. I know that much. So if you've got a suggestion for a language like that, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it.
Why must you call object-oriented programming codependent?
programs don't have feelings or psychology.
Object-oriented development (much of it can be done on the command-line and you just don't know it), is all about inheritance / base / derivative and 'self-awareness' in a structure within a program, which makes it not only far more efficient, but allows components to identify themselves to and communicate with one another and ... er ... standards to evolve. Standards, which, by definition, create accessibility. The web is simply another - universally accessible - filesystem.
This has gotten silly ...
lol It has, and was totally not the point of this post. My question was actually answered awhile ago. When I say codependent, I'm referring to everything being connected with everything else. I not only have to know what my program is doing, but what others are doing etc, because they're all related. anyway, not ready for markup languages and web stuff at any rate.